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There’s a well-known nursery rhyme which sets the scene for the Lion and the Unicorn:

The lion and the unicorn
Were fighting for the crown
The lion beat the unicorn
All around the town.

Some gave them white bread,
And some gave them brown;
Some gave them plum cake
and drummed them out of town.

Science fiction isn’t defined by unrealistic elements – that’s what defines _fiction_.

“The Time Machine” is SF because asks two questions: what would the consequences of moving directly through time be, and what will happen if social stratification goes on? The titular machine itself is irrelevant – there’s not even the slightest hint as to how it works, and it could just as easily be a psychic power.

“Somewhere in Time” isn’t SF because it has no interest at all in exploring the implications of its postulate, that human beings can project themselves into different times. The time travel is merely a means to the end of the romance story, and is given no more focus than is needed for that.

I believe I saw it, as a child, and IIRC it is a pretty good movie. But it doesn’t belong in a list of SF films; it’s purely Fantasy.

The presence of the ‘fantastic’ isn’t what defines science fiction. Science fiction is the branch of fiction where the implications of alterations to known principles are explored. In the very most traditional and rigorous forms, only a single principle is changed, but less formal types can involve multiple changes.

“Star Wars” has a lot of alternate-reality principles: there are humans in another galaxy, in the distant past, with alien life, FTL space travel, sapient constructed beings, and psychic powers. It is interested in exploring the consequences of none of these. Its development has nothing to do with the space opera backdrop it uses, and the story could just as easily be told in any number of non-SF settings. Indeed, since the plot was cribbed from Kurosawa’s “The Hidden Fortress”, that’s precisely how the story WAS told.

This is the same fundamental reason why the Oz books aren’t considered Science Fiction despite the presence of the Tin Man and Tik-Tok the Mechanical Man, even though their existence raises questions about conscious, uploading, cybernetics, and the nature of the identity: the books don’t explore the logical consequences of any of their postulates. “Back to the Future” is a highly entertaining movie but weak science fiction; nevertheless, it IS SF and not merely an adventure tale with technofantasy props.

Science fiction isn’t about aesthetics, superficiality, or trite cliches, and both of you ought to be ashamed to have reduced it to same. There are lots of great science fiction movies, and there’s no need to pad your list with influential non-SF.

I would take it kindly if Ken would in future not call those who are just looking for the next alleged plot to be outraged about as ‘conspirators’. That already has a meaning. The Proud Boy leadership were conspirators. The people who protested in Oxford arranged their idiocy openly.

I’ll admit that we need a better, shorter name than ‘conspiracy theorist’; ‘conpirifan’ perhaps.

But if Ken crosses the linguistic streams like this can the day be far away before Time Incorporated sends him back in time to erase this mistake from history?

(Correction; ’80s, not ’90s.)

Historical footnote I thought that some pedant ought to throw in: the term “bluebooking” was of course invented by the late Aaron Allston and his group in the ’90s Champions campaign that became the basis for the “Strike Force” supplement. And no, their bluebooking wasn’t about complex Hero System character design; it was side-channel communication and character background development (using blue school exercise books).

Which makes perfect sense given that Champions and this campaign were very much based on ’70s/’80s superhero comics, where the non-combat character stuff tends inevitably to the condition of soap opera, and bluebooking serves well to support character-driven melodrama and character background refinement – the very stuff of such soap opera.

https://neal-mouritsen-3.technetbloggers.de/

502 Bad Gateway

Hexadecimal is base sixteen: “six and ten”. I think Ken meant duodecimal – “two and ten”.

I was a little surprised that discussion didn’t mention DIE, of which Ken and Robin are certainly aware… Okay, I’ve only skimmed the RPG (which I suspect would need a very specific group of players, and a GM who isn’t me), and the comic is light on comedic irony, but it does seem relevant.
I will be taking a stab at running the new Monty Python RPG (sorry, cocurricular reenactment programme) some time, which may hit similar ideas from a different angle.

I’m amazed that neither of you mentioned Mike Pondsmith’s licensed _Dream Park_ RPG, which was about the most meta thing you can create. The game book in your hands was the “home version” of the elaborate holographic RPGs played in the eponymous futuristic amusement park, as described in the “tie-in novels” by Niven and Barnes. In the game you play characters playing Dream Park roleplaying games — some of which are televised and have fan communities, etc.

I wrote about it at greater length here: https://www.jamescambias.com/blog/2017/08/island-of-lost-games-dream-park.html

Love “Desperate Journey”. Great banter among the leads. Reagan and Kennedy in their last civilian acting appearances before they spend the rest of the war making training films for the USAAF stand up well against Errol Flynn. Hale, as the overaged aerial gunner, gives a good performance as the comrade in arms and comic relief.

Canadian-born Raymond Massey chews up scenery as the villain who screwed up by letting our heroes escape.

One of the first movies to show that not all Germans were Nazis.

Robin was mistaken. Rock Hudson did not play the older man. That was John Randolph.

Sincerely,
Patrion backer Tom Vallejos

I was trying to find more information about the Sistersville disaster and that doesn’t seem to be anything anywhere. Source?

Want more horror/esoterrorist Zillow inspiration? Look for the feed “Friday Night Zillow” on Mastodon and The Twitters.

I’d also like to point out that the Wayback machine has a copy on it if you go back to the date of the episode.

Great to hear mention of Charlie Stross’s Equoid. It’s such a great story that I’ve used it practically unaltered to run as a Laundry scenario several times. And it can be read for free, and legally, here

https://www.tor.com/2013/09/24/equoid/

As a lover of hard science fiction and of special effects, I was hoping that a Thirties SF roundup might include Vasilli Zhuravlev’s 1936 flight to the Moon, COSMIC VOYAGE (Kosmicheskii Reis). Alas, it did not.

This film ought to get more love. A technically-competent woman, an elderly male genius, and a space-obsessed boy stowaway, all loyal to the Party, undertake the first flight to the Moon as part of a massive Soviet spaceflight program.

Fine miniature effects. Plausible space suits. Silent, because not many theaters in the Soviet Union were equipped to show talkies in 1936. That just makes the film easier to follow! –unless you can’t read the Russian title cards. But some kind soul has blessed us with English translations here:
http://www.zipcon.net/~swhite/docs/filum/Cosmic_Journey.titles.html

Full film can be seen a few places on Youtube and elsewhere. Here’s one.

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I like “Things to Come”. It’s slow. I love the montages. The cast is pretty good. The book mentioned Nazis and Fascists but not the movie. Great production design. I saw an interview with Raymond Massey about this film. As I recall, Massey said the post-war scenes where Everytown was in ruins, the temperature was warm. But, when they shot the 2036 scenes wearing those light costumes it was freezing!

Dr. X is interesting to me because it’s a pre-Code film.

I watched Magnum, PI back in the ‘80s. The series is available on Freevee. Incidentally, in season 3 episode 6 when Magnum wakes up one morning and finds himself in 1936 where he has to solve a murder. 1930s versions of his friends are there as well. TC who is Black, did not know Magnum in this episode. He worked at the local airport in maintenance, but he did know how to fly an airplane.

If I was going GM this, I would make Magnum and Rick Marines who served together in WWI or in Nicaragua, Haiti, or China. If TC is to remain Black, the characters would have to deal with racial discrimination. Or just simply ignore it. It will be easier to have the characters know each other before the game begins. In this case, TC could be a former Marine pilot that served with them during the post-WWI period. I’ve been reading up on the history of Marine Aviation through 1934. Marine Aviation units in Haiti were quite small in the number of mostly rickety airplanes of the era.

Magnum’s narration could be used as a special ability to change the odds against him. Doesn’t always work. The season 7 finale was originally going to be the end of the series because he died of his wounds from a gunfight. But the ratings had revived enough that CBS asked him to come back to within an additional 14 episodes to resolve issues.

Also, Angela Lansbury played Jessica Fletcher in a crossover episode that is resolved on her show.

Robin was voiced by Orson Welles before his death. As Magnum described him as looking like Truman Capote but sounding like Welles.

I like the idea of using the Lester Leith model in gaming. What game would you use it with and how would it best work? Are there some good examples from the books that would would transfer well to RPGs?

So, to go back to the origin of OGL 1.0, WotC offered not to enter into lawsuits over things that they probably couldn’t control (since mechanics require patent, not copyright and that’s almost all that they released) and allowed people to use a specific trademark and compatibility statement (that would almost certainly have been purely nominative trademark use). In return, they got a promise not to try to use things that might have also been covered by fair use (their trade identity items) and the right to similarly use their competitors unprotectable mechanics.

When Darwin and Peter Bromley were involved in their long-running … kerfuffle … with TSR over this exact issue, TSR ended up by buying a warehouse full of game products to end the lawsuit that TSR started.

The salient part of this whole thing is that there were plenty of people willing to go all Mayfair on Hasbro and probably establish all those fair use and unpatented rights firmly in law. And at the same time, Hasbro was very efficiently alienating their D&D customer base. (Much more efficiently than they had just alienated their M:tG base with those silly unplayable 30th anniversary booster packs.)

None of the above should be taken as legal advice; talk to an overpriced IP lawyer if you want or need that, because (regrettably) am not one of those.

The best summation I’ve heard as yet –

Also, I don’t recall either of you mentioning the film known as “Final Prayer” or “The Borderlands”. You might appreciate it – it shows what the ‘found footage’ genre is capable of.

I’m a bit concerned that Star Wars is going to be treated as science fiction. It isn’t. Giving a fantasy a technological backdrop doesn’t make it science fiction, no more than cowboy hats and six-shooters make something a Western.

I’m reliably informed that nothing good ever happens after 2 am. This seems a confirming data point, but I’m very glad that it turned out better than it might have.

Thanks for the great tribute to Darren. I still can’t imagine him being gone. Such a good friend, great designer, and wonderful person to hold a discussion. If I ever wanted to try an obscure small-press game Darren NEVER let me down. His smile was infectious.

Darren and I ended up scream laughing in a bar after talking about ‘BS continuity’ and how it was ‘mutant ninja turtles all the way down!’ – Miss him dearly.

Kinda disappointed that you didn’t even mention “Holller” for Savage Worlds in the Appalachian section. We all know your connections to your publishers, but that omission left a bad aftertaste.

It’s always nice to hear “beloved Patreon backer” preceding my name, but it’s even better when it’s in relation to something of some significance. Having recently moved to a more rural location any RPG play is going to of necessity be remote. Thanks for providing some good guidance on getting started with reality twice-removed!

That section on Krazy Kat is why I’m a Patreon and why this is the greatest RPG-related podcast-type thing on the internet. AMAZING stuff.

Let me be the first to suggest the TV series MOUNTAIN MONSTERS (Travel Channel and Discover+). It features a collection of West Virginia hillbillies trying hunt and trap Appalachian cryptids.

It just occurs to me that as I write this, the team is actually an RPG adventuring party.

If you watch it with this viewpoint, it could be very rewarding and educational.

It sure seems like Babylon is a wannabe Singing in the Rain, but without the music or the charm.

Ken – the medical mystery melodrama RPG has been successfully implemented in Fae’s Anatomy by Caleb Stokes – Hebanon Games – http://faesanatomy.com/
It is a comedy melodrama not tragic but there is a mystery element since there isn’t really a GM but one person plays the patient and the final diagnosis can be hidden from the patient as well as the medical professional players via a web based app.

Also re Cthulhu and medical – Adam Scott Glancy ran a scenario on RPPR actual play set after world war 1 which was quite good… And starts with wounded veterans all missing a body part… But something “helps” them out with new but invisible parts.

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I enjoyed Spirited but I really thought it felt like it was a dry run for a broadway show.

The only problem with KARTAS doing a segment on Noah’s Ark is that you have to compete directly with the mighty Finkel’s video on the subject, which is great.

So, I guess in a NBA/ET game I don’t have to ask which side my country (Mexico) would be on given our dictator’s adamant habit of siding with Team Supervillain and our drug cartels’ blood magic rituals and Santa Muerte cult (who would totally be something from The Outer Dark).

So you mentioned Scorsese and that makes me have one question:
Is Goncharov a tulpa?

Do you get some malicious pleasure from tantalising us with delicious books, saying “I’m sure it’s still available” and then we find the cheapest copy online is £500! I’m talking of course about Hexen 2.0. I was lucky to score Hexen 2039 and the Tarot before the price went silly, but you’re right, they are things of brilliance, and spilling with ideas

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In reply to Kenneth Hite.

I’ve got to admit, I’m surprised you didn’t already know that. In both of his personas, he’s intersected with a lot of your areas of interest.

As Frank Collin, he wasn’t just an American Nazi, he was a Chicagoan, the organizer of the infamous planned Nazi march in Skokie in the ’70s, and the direct inspiration Henry Gibson’s “Illinois Nazi” character in “The Blues Brothers”.

His association with Burrows Cave, which you alluded to in the same segment, also has a sordid background. Collin apparently met Russel Burrows, the eponymous “discoverer” of the cave, in prison, while Collin was serving his sentence for child molestation and Burrows was working as a prison guard. The purported discovery of the cave in 1982 roughly coincides with Collin’s release from prison. Not long thereafter, Collin reinvented himself as “Frank Joseph”, and began promoting Burrows Cave, writing articles about it with the “Frank Joseph” byline, and branching out into various other New Age and hyper-diffusionist works.

I know you’ve written and talked about the fact that if you dig past the surface of “fun” fringe works, you often run into genuine nastiness, especially anti-Semitism. In the case of “Frank Joseph” (and the Burrows Cave), the reality below the “fun” fringe element is truly repulsive.

In reply to gdave.

Thanks for the intel! It’s a good thing I’ve only ever bought his books used!

I’m disappointed that in his brief aside on “Frank Joseph,” Ken seems to portray him as a harmless, fluffy fringe writer. Frank Joseph is the pseudonym of Frank Collin, a convicted child molester, and a literal Nazi. He was a prominent member of the American Nazi Party and the founder of the National Socialist Party of America. After his conviction for child molestation and subsequent parole, Frank Collin reinvented himself as “Frank Joseph”, New Age and hyper-diffusionist writer. In that persona, he’a been very careful to keep his distance from blatant white supremacy, but as far as I know, he’s never publicly repudiated his Nazi past. He isn’t merely “ridiculous”. And it’s almost certainly no coincidence that when he attributes great voyages of discovery, exploration, and colonization to “Africans”, he means (light-skinned) North Africans, not sub-Saharan Africans. Just as it’s almost certainly no coincidence that his brand of hyper-diffusionism gives the credit for the achievements of the “high civilizations” of the Americas to North Africans, Kelts, (Aryan-allied) Japanese, Atlanteans, or literally just about anyone other than the actual indigenous peoples of the Americas.

Another fine podcast, gents.

Your mentioning of both the compiled Horror Cinema Essentials and, later, iconic characters, got me thinking that you might do a multi-part survey of said iconic characters. I think it might be interesting to get your overviews of Conan, James Bond, Batman, Doc Savage, etc.

Just watched Sheep Without a Shepherd and enjoyed it very much. An interesting side note is how Thai boxing is presented in the film. The fights are in a cage instead of a boxing ring and the aesthetic is very different from traditional Muay Thai with an emphasis on aggression and brutality instead of composure and calm dominance. Some traditional elements however, such as the headgear, arm bands, and pre-fight dance (ram muay) were retained.
Muay Thai today is under a lot of pressure to adapt to a younger and more international audience resulting in some promotions (without the name Muay Thai as I understand it) pushing for a more aggressive, clashing, and less-nuanced style.
I wonder if the depiction was because of cultural unfamiliarity (it’s a Chinese production) or a conscious choice to highlight the situation the protagonists find themselves in.

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One could probably combine all this episode’s Huts into a single gloriously gonzo scenario in which Ben Franklin is the secret mastermind behind the City project, built as a sorcerous checkmate to the weird irruptors of Skinwalker Ranch.

Note that Uintah (pr. You-In-Tah) County includes Dinosaur National Monument, and specifically the Dinosaur Vault. Clearly, this will become the epicenter of the Dinosaur Resurrection (and of course Insurrection … “Insurresurrection”?).

By itself, a mass raising of dinosaurs in northeastern Utah would probably not be a problem. But since a huge number of those bones were taken away by paleontologists and scattered around the world, when the dinosaurs from which those bones were taken arise, there will be risen saurians in many of the larger cities everywhere. Note that New York and Chicago will probably be worst affected.

I think the varying level of detail, crunch and simulation at the table is a subset of the phenomenon of focus.

Some games will tell you not to worry about the travel between nodes of the adventure. “Yeah, you travel for three days through the wilderness and you arrive at the ruined temple.” But THE ONE RING makes the travel through the wilderness a core part of the game. Presumably, the players (including the GM) like it that way.

Now, I’m pretty sure that sometimes I want the journey to be a huge part of the story. But sometimes I want to just say, “Yeah, you travel for three days, use up half of your rations and water and arrive at the ruined temple.” So, as Ken said, I want the rules to be there.

What I get annoyed about with some systems is that they assume that there are places the story should not know and not only don’t provide rules (if only the skeleton of general rules I can adapt) for the things they are not interested in but put barriers against going in that direction.

None of which explains exactly why hand to hand unarmed combat rules are always so bloody hard to get into my head. I can visualise how bows and arrows work, ditto guns, ditto people hacking at each other with sword and shield and all that stuff. But punching, kicking and grappling rules seem to be written by and for people who don’t think about action the way I do. Dunno, why. Do you Ken and Robin?

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I’m surprised to see 3000 Years of Longing get Recommended. I was dumbstruck in the theater as the film unfolded, and by the fourth act I wanted off the ride despite the story finally developing. Pretty visuals and production, bizarre pacing and choice of focus.

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Predatory could be the origin of the flintlock that the Predators give Danny Glover’s character at the end of Predator 2.

The list is updated! https://letterboxd.com/thebitterguy/list/ken-and-robin-talk-about-stuff-pinnacle-films/detail/

In reply to Joe Webb.

It’s a 4. Thanks for spotting this.

What score do you give “Hey There!”? I’m going to watch it, but should I expect a 5 or a 1 or something in between?

Tremors in the Old West was in fact so obvious an idea that they actually made that movie almost 20 years ago: Tremors 4: The Legend Begins (2004) was a prequel set in 1889. No connection to the Gunfight at the OK corral, though.

Fat Leonard escaped house arrest on the eve of trial. Is this his Agatha Christy Dosappearence moment? Is he a (slightly more modern) El Chapo? Realistically no to either, but it’s an interesting anecdote nonetheless.

Rather than Gibbon, I’d recommend John Julius Norwich’s histories of the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire. The three-volume history is excellent, but he has a very good one-volume version as well.

Another decent choice would be the the period of Swedish rule in Novgorod/Kiev: Viking successors as the plucky new civilizing element, the Byzantines to the south as the declining and decadent old empire, and a variety of Slavs and steppe nomads as the barbarians at the walls.

Will review your schedule and see what I can get at home. Thanks for your efforts. Expanding to watch films at home with a forum to chat is wonderful. And your memories of bopping in and out of screenings at early festivals brings me joy. Also I remember hearing people in line ups talking about a film then you quickly consulted the schedule to see if there was another screening! Oh The Good Old Days!

Wikipedia says that the US Marathon had some similarities to the UK Curly Wurly. In fact the article claims the US Marathon was a rip off of Cadbury’s Curly Wurly. The UK version is chewy toffee in long intertwined strands covered with chocolate.

The Curly Wurly is still around, it seems, Ken should try one when he comes to Dragonmeet.

Interesting that the US had Marathons that were different from the UK Marathons, which were Snickers (and have now been rebranded as such, for the benefit of globalisation, and horror of everyone who considers the Mars corporation is stealing their childhood)

I would LOVE to try and create a Dramasystem AP podcast. My previous 2 (and 1/2) attempts to create a game have not worked out. Right now (8/5/22) I have a listing on Roll 20 for an 8ish session WW 2.1 game.

I would like to add my voice to the choir asking to know what the “Hitean thesis about a certain other starship captain” is.

Tell Me More about Strange New Worlds, and in particular the teased “Hite Thesis” about a certain starship captain.

I mean we have to know said Hitean Thesis

Hi! I’m working my way through the archives and discovered that this one is “forbidden,” or at least that’s what my pod app tells me. 103 and 105 both work fine (as have the many other fine KARTAS episodes I’ve enjoyed over the years, thanks). Did this one say too much? Are the above comments the work of crisis actors? How far am I willing to go to track down this mysterious episode, and what will I find at my journey’s end?

And now some nutjobs just blew up the Georgia Guidestones.

Also, see this review of NBA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LybkBvNU-Js

Now, we must speculate on the co-host for Nek’s podcast, Petirrojo – a Mexican game designer with a fondness for IPAs and Luchador movies.

Arminius Vambrey and the Vampires of the Silk Road

I think we need Robin and Ken to compare views on Everything Everywhere All at Once. I think it could be more epic than anything since Siskel and Ebert.

The weird bug as omen that leaps immediately to mind are the weird vividly colored bugs that turn up as harbingers of the corruption the Color is wreaking in the recent Color Out of Space movie.

I’d like to request that you review Everything, Everywhere, All at Once.

A two-Cambias episode!

I do love that Stonehouse’s Wiki entry lists “Faking own death” and “actual death”.

The Flattery expedition? So Ken, are you saying that Flattery got them nowhere?

There’s a list of all the books from bookshelf on the Pelgrane Discord waiting to be imported. You can load them from this page: https://www.goodreads.com/review/import.

My wife and I only have 7 Tarot decks in our collection. One is the classic Rider-Waite. We also have Robin Wood’s deck (which is mostly Rider-Waite imagery redrawn in her style), Stephanie Pui-Min Law’s Shadowscapes Tarot (which is probably the prettiest deck I’ve ever seen), and the Pathfinder Harrow deck (which, like the Ravenloft Tarokka deck, is that game’s in-world equivalent to the Tarot).

MythBusters did an episode testing a couple of the theories about the Hindenberg disaster. Regardless of whether you agree with their conclusions, seeing a 10-foot (or so) scale model zeppelin engulfed in flames is an unforgettable sight.

My first job was at a JCPenney in a mall that Gehry designed. As retail space, it was plus ungood, with lots of weird angles and (so nearly as I can tell) something close to zero real consideration given to what purposes back rooms serve. Which would make it great as a dungeon, giving the mapper fits along the way.

I thought you could have at least mentioned the clown in the yellow jumper with his face painted white cavorting under his golden sign.

For fantasy architecture, MC Escher seems an obvious choice. He certainly designed built spaces (though usually not buildable spaces). And with magic, those spaces could be realized.

Failing that (and assuming you wanted an architect who calls himself an architect), Daniel Libeskind would be a fine choice for the utterly impractical lair of an evil overlord. (Useless for actual life, of course, but that’s not what we’re looking for, right?) And, as with FL Wright, you could expect water dripping from the ceilings for that dank atmosphere that is so iconic in dungeons.

Talking of alternate histories of the Restoration, my ‘Isaac-Newton-accidentally-restores-magic’ campaign featured Titus Oates as one of the Thirty Six people who got infused with the power of one of the decans. He was imbued with Kurtaêl whose sphereDeath, fear, decay, and disease and it couldn’t happen to a nicer fellow

In reply to Michael Cule.

Isn’t an economic system which inevitably spirals into debt and misery a feature rather than a bug, in that it forces the pc’s to go out and have adventures in order to maintain their lifestyle, rather than just sit at home and count the proceeds of their otherwise “off screen” activities?

In reply to Michael Cule.

Agreed on the dice part; the Game part of role-playing game requires a certain amount of respect for the odds.
Regarding allegory – I largely agree with the point, but might Runequest heroquests provide one partial exception? They are, as I understand the Staffordian metaphysics, meant to be more or less explicitly metaphorical, though questers may manipulate or oppose the allegory on occasion.

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I fell several months behind on KARTAS and just listened to this one this week. Imagine my delight to see a Georgia gubernatorial candidate featuring the guide stones in her (disturbing) ad. Kandiss Taylor is her name, IIRC. Definitely in conspiracy corner.

Listening to you talk about the unimportance of probabilities makes me say:
‘Yeah but….’

Rolling the dice and reading the result are part of the game bit of the experience
and mucking up the sense of fairness and verisimilitude causes players to stop thinking about the story and start looking through the tissue thin scenery and think about what’s going on behind it.

The difficulties I’ve had with dice systems come in two flavours: where the designer didn’t think through the odds of something happening to crash the sysem. Both of the worst examples were economic systems: the manor system in PENDRAGON and the GURPS version of TRAVELLER starship economics both of which had a tendency to spiral into debt and misery.

The other was with people not being able to grasp the way the odds worked in a game system. For my players it was Greg Stolze’s REIGN/ONE ROLL ENGINE which was just too unlike the simple roll under systems of GURPS and RUNEQUEST. Which is a pity because I dearly love the system and setting. For me it was GENESYS which has peculiar specially made dice and which I just can’t grab hold of.

If the players can’t look at their character sheet and then at the dice and figure out what their rough chances of survival are then they can’t plan and all encounters become a matter of reckless courage and shouting “Never tell me the odds!” Which is fun in its way but not the sum total of gaming. Or it can lead to deciding that the GM is being unfair and sulking.

As to allegories, I can only remember that one RQ game involved and encounter with a black dragon which lived in (or actually was) a black tower. I was told afterwards by the GM that this was an allegory. Both I and my character protested against this. I do not want to live in much less play in a world where my blood and sweat are merely symbols of some higher truth and I am just a background character in someone else’s tale.

It was established in 1999, is a CBSE-affiliated co-educational school & one of the best school in Bulandshahr. Additionally, the School offers co-curricular activities designed to promote students’ interpersonal skills and provide state-of-the-art academic and sporting facilities.

I also have #154 downloaded and would gladly send it your way.

What I get for not listening yesterday, I could have been first Gene Hackman 😉

I frequently keep downloaded copies of the podcast, because 1 Tb disc why not, and I do have 154; if it’d help, I can pass a copy back to our esteemed hosts.

In reply to Fred Kiesche.

“Orange and Tufty from the Primordial Swamp”? I have a copy.

I’m pretty sure I have 154 downloaded on my PC. As a Beloved Patreon Backer, I would make it my duty to pass a copy back.

I’m surprised that Ken didn’t bring up the story of Lyonnesse which is Ys (and its Welsh siblings) writ large: a whole kingdom lost to the sea. It has the story of the last man to flee riding his horse just ahead of the wave: supposedly the basis of the coats of arms of the Trevelyan and Vyvyan families.

I have a copy of episode 154 on my phone, but I have no way to export it as a file. If somebody knows a way for me to give this episode back to Ken and Robin let me know.

Here is one for a future Mythos Hut.
The Osaka Expo 2025 mascot might be the servant of some elder god or the offspring of Cookie Monster and a Gibbering Mouther.
Furthermore, it has yet to be named in human speech.
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Sometime in the next 5-10 years, William Weir is going to complete his Ph.D and perhaps postdoctoral work at the Miskatonic University aerospace engineering program and go on to build the kinda successful experimental FTL project Event Horizon. (It may be thought of as having obtained the most adversarial “yes, but” result ever.)

Sorry you guys missed this one; glad to help fill the gap.

In reply to Ben Sanders.

If I search for “Ken and Robin” on Spotify, this podcast comes up as the main result.

This was a particularly good episode guys. Thank you.
Is this podcast available on Spotify? I can never find it..

In reply to Joel.

We were migrating files. Thanks for reporting the issue.

You really got through that segment without saying kitsune?

Going to the back catalog of your episodes, somewhere around episode 130, the podcast cannot be played due to a broken source. I skipped forward by fives and then by 10s until I got to episode 276, which worked, but 277 did not. I have used castbox for the first 130 episodes, and then when the broken source issue occurred I switched over to your website and I’m still having issues. Just thought I’d let you know. Thanks for all the amazing huts that y’all have opened!

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Hey there! Seems like the link to this episode’s MP3 is broken, giving an “Access Denied” error. Many episodes released around the same time have the same problem. Is there any other way to get them?

Yay, this week’s podcast showed up in the Apple Podcasts app! But…it shows up with your URL in place of the episode title…(truly trivial issue, but it seems like there’s something still not quite right with the way your podcast is communicating with the app).

In reply to Cameron Hays.

You don’t have any ideas what happened to the Blades reskin set in Elizabethan London (I think it was called Coneycatchers) do you ? That always intrigued me (19thC NY would also be great)

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In reply to Robin.

Yeah, that worked! 🙂

Hi there. I was one of the writers on Haunted West and have a finished manuscript for Blades of New York, a Forged in the Dark game set in the “Gangs of New York” era. I’ve run it at Gen Con (and will again this year) and for folks from/affiliated with Evil Hat. I assure you that there IS interest in a strictly historical game with those themes. Hit me up if you’d like to chat about the subject.

In reply to Derek.

Sorry to have missed this. Has the issue corrected itself? Have you tried unsubscribing and resubscribing?

In reply to Derek.

If I search for the podcast to addit again, I can find it, but I can’t add it as it knows I already follow the feed.

Yeah, not showing on Podkicker.

Works on Overcast!

In reply to Jim Roberts.

Argh, we updated the RSS to conform to Apple’s new security requirements. It shows up in Downcast. What happens if you search for the podcast as if to add it? Does the ep show up there?

This isn’t showing on my podcast aggregator of choice, PodAddict. Checking with them to see if the issue’s on their end, but I’ve heard similar stories from others this morning.

I can’t see this chapter in Apple Podcasts, maybe there’s an issue?

What ever happened to the poet-boxer Arthur Cravan (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b01r9c9c), Oscar Wilde’s nephew and husband to modernist (proto surrealist? https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/47695/lunar-baedeker) poet Myrna Loy? Did he write the Treasure of the Sierra Madre (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/apr/22/jack-johnson-arthur-cravan-boxing-oscar-wilde)? Did he sail into the Dreamlands?

I sense the influence of a hand clutching a bottle of 1915 Tequila anejo.

Yes i am totally agreed with this article and i just want say that this article is very nice and very informative article.I will make sure to be reading your blog more. You made a good point but I can’t help but wonder, what about the other side?

I think the Magical Kitties ad is making its way up to “English not Swedish” tier. #IDoNot #IAlsoDoNot

The Norwegian Stay Behind network was subject to a very extensive government investigation into the Norwegian secret services in the early 90s. The name of the Norwegian operation was simply ‘Stay Behind’, though you’ll occasionally see it listed as ROC or “Rocambole”, which was the codename for one of Stay Behind’s three sub-networks. (In specific, the network of sabotage groups that were supposed to lead the guerilla operations. The two other networks were “Lindus”, a network of intelligence agents, and “Blue Mix”, a pilot search & rescue/VIP extraction system.)

When it comes to Delta Green and stay behind operations, it’s alleged that all of the stay behind operations were coordinated through the Clandestine Planning Committee and/or the Allied Clandestine Committee. Having a Delta Green operative on the CPC/ACC would provide a convenient excuse for how DG can coordinate counter-occult operations across Europe.

Call it the Nostalgia Hut, or the Recap Hut.

Hi Ken/Robin – in this episode you mention a campaign with Mecha-Stalin and his cold star heart, which I thought was fascinating. How about a new, occasional hut, in which you discuss past campaigns you’ve run or played in and pull out gameable bits for the listeners?

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Going Here

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I love that Pope John XX is the brown m&m of the timestream. One look and Ken knows they didn’t read his rider.

The Burial of Euclid reminds me of a ritual of some engineering students in Tampere. At the last student club sauna event of the spring, everyone who has passed their mandatory Swedish as second language course brings their course notes, and they burn them together in the grill or the fireplace, chanting “Brinna, brinner, brann, brunnit! Brinna, brinner, brann, brunnit!” Which, of course, is the conjugation of the Swedish verb for burning.

I really like the contagion aspects, but not the destruction – it treads too closely on the portfolio of other gods.

Perhaps the reason that the Yithians are involved is that an intelligent entity contaminated by the god slowly gains greater insight until they truly become one with it – at which point they become the origin of a miniature Big Bang. Accounts for all those pesky gamma-ray bursters! The Yithians are trying to ensure that the planet survives so that they can possess a species that arises after us – they have no interest in us as ourselves.

The good news about the WCRA is that we can now blame the Chinese for Scientology.

One way or another. Heck, probably both ways. Or maybe even all tau ways.

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Now we think that King Arthur was a composite of 5 different people (https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/king-arthur-legend-ambrosius-aurelianus-cassivellaunus-magnus-maximus/) how would you use this in a game?

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One of the biggest problems with testing of games through long periods, and this is not just a problem with RPGs, is that the number of possible combinations of “things” is a factorial function of the number of “things”. You can’t test every possible element of such a set beyond the very beginning of that set of combinations.

Back when I was playtesting for various CCGs, this was a particular problem. And at least some companies were unwilling to accept it as an actual problem. “Rigorously prove that’s broken” is essentially impossible when you’re trying to test a set of (say) 300 new cards when combined with an existing set of some thousands of cards.

And since companies continue to exist (and games continue to evolve) by the sale of more things, this is a relatively intractable problem.

Also, “perceive things as a dolemite”? Hmm, that could be problematic.

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You guys are great, but all you’ve accomplished in the Mythos Hut is to create another persona for Nyarlathotep to inhabit.

Perhaps it would be helpful if you looked at the ways Cthulhu is distinct from Nyarlathotep, and why no one suggests the Dreamer in R’lyeh is an avatar of the Messenger of Azathoth.

I feel it’s also worth pointing out that Lovecraftian Gods generally *aren’t* male in any sense other than the grammatical default, just as they aren’t female. Even Shub-Niggurath is feminine only in the sense of giving birth, and can probably ‘father’ offspring just as easily.

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I’m sure you’ve been inundated with tales of drunk food from around the world, but I just had to share my love of Shaokao, Chinese barbeque, at least as it was in Kunming, Yunnan.

You could step out of the night clubs, which were in a 2-block, walled off district and right next to the entrance was a stall with 5 kinds of tofu, 10 different veggies and every imaginable part of an animal from brains to feet. You pick out what you want and they grill it over hot coals stoked by what sounded like a leaf blower, then dust it with chilli powder and sichuan peppercorn. You could also choose from a variety of condiments, mostly different kinds of chilli sauce.

Ever since that joy, I can’t see how any city could call itself civilized if there isn’t midnight street corner barbeque.

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Two pinnacle films this week!

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While “pursevant’ would be a reasonable spelling for that word, that spelling is obsolete (ME). English is an unreasonable language and it’s actually spelled “pursuivant” in modern English.

I must say, though, that the pronunciation is not what I expected, though it is correct (“unreasonable language” again). I’ve always used (at least in my head, since it’s not used all that often in speech), the spelling pronunciation.

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Had no idea Montague Summers sounded like Frank Nelson, or maybe that should be the otherway around, unless…timetravel? Yeeesss…

I am also enraged by the fact that I cannot obtain any of these books, even via my usual interdimensional suppliers. We demand you give up your sources, Mr. Hite!

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It seems to me that an analysis of why this season of Doctor Who failed would make a great Hut.

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Worst Ken’s Bookshelf ever! I would easily buy at least half of the books mentioned, not least the Jose Farmer and the Ackroyd. Why must you taunt us so Hite ?

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If decimal measures are so wonderful, why has no one adopted a decimal time system? 🙂

I remember my first lava rodeo: imp roping, wild fire elemental race, hellhound bustin’, ….

Good times, but bring enough water. It gets a little warm and the prices at the concession stand are extortionate and the lines are ridiculous.

In reply to Robin.

I can confirm, as someone who is listening through classical Ken & Robin episodes, that this has been a problem with iTunes and Apple podcasts for some time now. To listen on my phone, I have to download mp’s as files directly from this website.

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I’m not sure where Ken got the idea that we had lions in Britain in the Middle Ages. The closest you can cone is fossils going back to the last Ice Age. (The actual Ice Age, not the Little Ice Age.) We had wolves until the 16th, maybe even the 18th, century, but no big cats.

In reply to Allen Wilkins.

The first had the wrong Drac Dossier commercial.

In reply to Robin.

Ah, it’s nice to know one’s suggestions can have an effect.

What’s different about the “corrected” episode?

In reply to J Michael Cule.

I would run in terror from that.

Robin, would you welcome playtesters who sent you recordings of their sessions? It would be a lot more material to absorb but would give you a fairly unfiltered set of reactions from playres as well as GMs.

Disney beat you to the punch 16 years ago: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0361089/

Every time Ken says “djinn” I think he’s saying “gin”.

I own Graves’ The Greek Myths, and very much agree with Ken’s assessment. As long as you’re not too much of a snob about the “correct” version of any myth (which is nonsense anyway, because the classic authors changed things to suit their stories all the time), it’s a wonderful resource for running a Greek mythology-based game. Graves’ footnotes are full of crazypants assertions, but every so often, one of his ideas will be perfect for putting a twist into a well-known myth to keep players guessing about the truth and what to do next.

For example, in the solo game that I run for my wife, I took the Hellenistic idea that the Greek and Egyptian gods were the same pantheon (which Frasier and Graves enthusiastically embraced), and turned that syncratism on its head. I kept the bit about Set and Typhon being the same deity, because it helped me link the two cultures in an interesting way. However, I made the war against him into a secret alliance between Greek and Egyptian gods–and neither pantheon wants to admit to mortals they needed help to survive. Learning that secret was a major plot point of the campaign, and now our heroine needs to engineer a second alliance to prevent Typhon/Set’s imminent return.

Just took a look on Audible, and it seems that the first 19 Matt Helm novels are available for free to subscribers.

For some reason this episode isn’t showing up on the “episodes” page
http://www.kenandrobintalkaboutstuff.com/index.php/category/podcast/

I would submit that Champions (the original version from 1981) was pretty explicitly emulationist. It was all about providing a gaming system that would give mechanical support to players doing all the silly things in comic books.

The entire disadvantage system had nothing to do with replicating anything in the world; you don’t get stronger by being afraid of the dark after all. Skills were also very much about designing for effect: it’s no more difficult to get a skill in quantum mechanics than it is to get a skill in flower arranging. But learning martial arts was quite difficult (read expensive in points).

The game was quite mechanically complex, as you noted, but I assert that was orthogonal to the simulation/emulation axis. (In some ways, Fate lives in that same emulationist area, but without the mechanical complexity.)

OTOH, GURPS is much more simulationist. People often die when they get hit by even one bullet in real life, so that’s what the game does. Some skills are explicitly much harder to learn than others, not because they are more effective the average game but because they’re difficult in real life.

I can’t, offhand, come up with a low-complexity, simulationist RPG, but I’m pretty sure they exist. Maybe GDW’s old “En Garde” would work, since most of the complexity is in the fencing system, which isn’t really all that difficult to manage, and which is definitely intended to replicate aspects of actual fencing.

NB: The name “Menzies” is pronounced (traditionally, and specifically in this case) “Mingiss”. It’s a Scottish thing.

In reply to Christopher ‘Vulpine’ Kalley.

err not Doug, instead of not Dave.

Faunus’s editor is Mark Valentine, not Dave. And if you like books about really obscure books, look at his stuff with Tartarus Press. His short stories are good too.

Happy Valley is quite close to the Mountain of the Black Wind on a map of Kenya.

I’m surprised we’re at #464 without any hut on Fulcanelli; at least, searching the site produces no results. Have there truly been no Patreons requesting a discussion of this elliptonic hidden master?

Hey. Can you fix the file upload type? I can’t play this in either player.fm or apple podcasts. There must be something wrong with the encoding etc.

I’d like to nominate for consideration as an elegant system Risus, the game designed in 5-7 pages total.

Fun fact: JoDee (my wife) is a member of the AAVSO and her research focus is on variable stars. Got a big ol’ grin over here listening to this episode. Thank you!

For a game where “variety”/”ornament” is core to the game experience (and not in a Dangerous Dimensions/Dangerous Journeys way), I’d point to Deadlands (the original version), where every possible resolution system known to gaming at the time shows up somewhere.

I’m sorry, you missed a huge honking clue: Raimondo de SANGRO? “Raymond BLOOD.” If that dude wasn’t a vampire then he was wasting a huge amount of potential.

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Episode 341: Trouser Leg of the Mythos « Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff

Hey guys, looking forward to the panel at Dragoncon on 30 years of World of Darkness with Ken and Bill. My group will be running a historical-based World of Darkness LARP on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights in the Westen and will be using some of the info from books Ken worked on in the past. While we play 5th Edtion Vampire the Masquerade now at home in Orlando, for Cons like DragonCon we run LARPs in the By Night Studios System. Since we have several types of Prodigals in our LARP I hope to get a chance to talk with Ken about the Dark Ages Mages and how best to mix them into our game. We have two at this time. Thanks will be back again next week for the next PC.

Poetry? My would sound like it was written by a Vogon

If you’d like to see the seal, go here. https://www.chipublib.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/07/city-seal.png

IME, the main reason you don’t see every adventurer wielding a greatsword is because some of them want to use one of their hands for something else–like interposing a shield between themselves and the other guy’s greatsword. The characters who use big two-handed weapons (greatswords, polearms, etc.) tend to belong to the classes who can have really good AC even without a shield (paladins, some fighters) or have a ton of HP to make up for getting hit more often (barbarians, some fighters).

The real question for the time lords is whether Ken’s campaign eliminates Cinco de Mayo.

I’m Dave’s friend and I think you did a pretty good job! There are so many sensational connections to be made around Siddall. Btw I quite like Polidori’s The Vampyre – which some say might have influenced Christina Rossetti’s Goblin Market – which was read as a tale of lesbian incest by Playboy and published with pictures in the 1970s…

“A sheep that can ram you.”

I see what you did there.

My first thought on the magic numbers drawing power from the universe was the DC hero Johnny Quick, whose recitation of the mathematical notation 3X2(9YZ)4A gave him super speed. He later became a self help guru trying to teach people how to improve their own lives with concentration and magic numbers.

Mandatory geekery: Waddingtons were the British family boardgames company in my youth. The had the UK licenses for things like Monopoly and Risk, and licensed their own creation Cluedo to the USA, where it’s known as Clue. Swallowed by Hasbro in 1994.

Coolest detail in the company history; they produced a special edition of Monopoly during WWII to be distributed to British PoWs in Germany via care parcels. Said special edition had escape equipment concealed within its components.

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Ken and Robin Consume Media: Samurai, Santa and Spider-Mans « Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff

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Roleplaying disadvantages (and enemies, and a variety of other similar things) are inherently player requests for more control over the narrative. Why would you give a character more power because his player wants control over your world?

The answer in 7th Sea RPG is that you actually give the character less power (charge points for taking disads). In return, if the GM decides that a character being hunted by gray aliens (or having spiders menace the arachnophobe, or whatever) would be really fun, the player is rewarded with extra points each time that comes up in play.

This reverses the incentive structure in a way that I think is really elegant. If a character has a disadvantage that comes up all the time (and is thus a real disadvantage), that character will pay off the points originally spent and eventually get a benefit for coming up with something that helps the game play. If a character has an uninteresting (or meaningless) disadvantage (and only the GM gets to decide whether it’s really uninteresting, by using or not using it), then it just costs points.

This also incents the player to confer with the GM before the game to make sure that his idea of having parents who are serial killers is actually something that will be used in play.

FWIW, I now use a variant of this for all games that usually give points for disadvantages; it works great in Hero System.

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You sunk my phantom battleship! 😀

Pirates or ninjas? Depends on the latitude and time of year.

As is well known, pirates wore poofy white shirts, which are light and protect well from UV, so definitely pirates in summer in warm latitudes.

OTOH, Ninjas dress all in black and cover nearly every bit of skin. Black and covered completely in the summer is right out, but very useful in higher latitude winters, especially in forests.

It’s not clear whether either group exhibits migration behavior, but presumably there are latitudinal restrictions on range. Further, Europe seems to be lighter on ninjas than would be expected by the climate, so we must assume either that they have been extirpated in their typical range or that European ninjas are just that much better than the rest, and they’re actually all over Europe but are masters of concealment.

To that last point, has anyone ever seen an EU bureaucrat in the same room with a ninja?

If you haven’t read The Moscow Rules (by Antonio and Jonna Mendez), it’s very much worth the time and pretty directly in your lane. (A cursory search doesn’t find a mention of the book on this site.)

It’s an excellent discussion of the CIA’s spycraft in Moscow at the height of the Cold War.

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Hi Ken and Robin. I am in the the midst of watching a french pseudo Documentary about early silent film director, and innovator of special effects, Georges Méliès. It son Prime and its called “Fury of the Demon”
Its basically a documentary about him, and spiritualism of the era, but framed as a mystery around a fake film named the same as the documentary that apparantly shows up occasionally and drives crowds mad like its the Yellow King or the first recital of the Rite of Spring.
Anyway, it struck me as being very in the wheelhouse of the sort of thing you all might be interested in for various and sundry rpg uses, so I decided to end my near total self imposed blackout on commenting online.
Enjoy, and thanks for the podcast, its always a joy.

The idea that women have sexual fantasies about their fathers is called the Electra Complex – the Oedipus Complex deals with the imagined male desire to sexually possess their mothers.

Both ideas are completely wrong, but for different reasons. The Electra Complex was invented to explain away reports of sexual abuse, as you two noted, while the Oedipus Complex originated in Freud’s need to normalize his own reported sexual reactions to his mother. Like many other children of his time and location, he had a wet nurse and his mother wasn’t a primary caregiver. The Westermarck Effect, which induces people to reject as potential sexual partners either anyone around them in infancy and toddlerhood, or infants and toddlers, had not yet been discovered. So Freud (and other men of his SEC) lacked the biochemical locking-out most humans experience; the overwhelming majority of men not only lack sexual feelings for their mothers but find the idea repellent. Rather than investigate the phenomenon, Freud chose to define his own state as a human universal and assert that men who claimed to feel differently were lying or in denial.

KARTAS briefly stated “Holland Gin… seems to have died out entirely” which is NOT true.* Genever, the Dutch liquor that inspired British gins, survives and is even making a comeback! And thank God the Dutch have genever, because their beers are awful. https://www.themanual.com/…/what-is-genever-jenever…/

*I’m guessing Ken knows way more about Genever than me, but you guys were rushing through a lot of gin variants.

It’s a long time since I read it, but isn’t the Nördlinger Ries crater where the Tanu spacecraft crashed in Julian May’s Saga of the Exiles? Psychic aliens in Pliocene and their crystals causing trouble in the modern world. Obviously

Imbibe will turn otherwise sane people into huge cocktail nerds. The follow-up book, Punch, is very nearly just as good.

It’s Suzi Yee and the company is Expeditious Retreat Press. Thanks for the mention, Ken!
I can’t take all the credit. Joseph Browning is my better half and we co-wrote the Magical Society series, starting with A Magical Medieval Society in 2003.
I love a fantastical no-holds bar world for one-offs (conventions or games days in the before times), but our campaigns run very similar to what Ken was describing– using realism to make a world in which the PC are extraordinary in their abilities. We personally find that more fun to play as players and as GMs, found our players were more engaged with that set up. That’s why a lot of our game supplements come from that perspective–guides to help GMs figure out how they want to create that in their world.
Ecology and Culture helps people build their worlds from the map up, and Silk Road is about overland trade routes (with a discussion about taking in below ground in a fantasy world). They were all bears to research and write, but the fact that they are still helping world builders many years after they were released feels pretty good.

In reply to J Michael Cule.

Suzi Yee, not Suzy Yi. Looked it up on RPG.net

Can I ask for more details of Expeditious Departure Press and (what sounded like) Suzy Yi?

Because that sounds like something that might be of great interest to me and to others if it’s available of DriveThru or even second hand and in print and my GoogleFu has failed me on this.

(The show-notes are a lie! Or at least an in-joke.)

The paraglider leitmotif of the first segment reminded me of Benny the astronaut from The LEGO Movie. He really just wants to build and fly a spaceship, but he keeps getting shot down when he suggests it. Eventually, the gang needs him to build a spaceship as part of the master plan that actually uses everyone’s talents.

Gosh! I never knew that Canada had Prohibition. I mean it’s obvious now I think of it that the crazy wouldn’t stop entirely at the border. But I’m afraid that it has shattered my naive reverence for the common sense of those who dwell under the maple leaf flag has been forever shattered.

Thank you very much for the kind words about Transgressive Horror!

Link is here for the interested: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ghostshowpress/transgressive-horror

In reply to Brett Myers.

I think the army of loyal Patreon backers need to get the monthly total to $2,000 for that to happen. I’ma double my pledge.

so do you think curtis’s perspective veers too far into conspiracism in assuming intent in encouragement of of the embrace of conspiracism?

so do you think curtis’s perspective veers too far into conspiracism in assuming intent in encouragement of of the embrace of conspiracism

Not all unicorns are good and virtuous.

There is a low-level Starfinder adventure where a half-mad, very territorial unicorn poses the greatest physical threat of the scenario. It’s possible to resolve the encounter peacefully, but extremely difficult. It really just wants to be left alone, and will try to blow up trespassers with the rocket launcher mounted on its horn. It’s a bit silly, yes, but great fun to see the players’ shocked reactions. Nobody ever forgets *that* encounter.

FLYING, ACID-DRIPPING lawful good horseshoe crab. That is disabled when flipped over, Robin. The F20 lore is clear.

After the episode I told Ken I thought the Runza was basically a calzone, but according to this, I was so wrong! It’s a hollowed out loaf of bread with things stuffed inside. https://www.thrillist.com/eat/nation/best-midwest-restaurant-chains-fast-food

I would love to hear Ken and Robin talk about Montague Summers, mentioned in the Highgate Vampire segment. This clergyman translated the Malleus Maleficarum into English in the 1920s and wrote seriously about vampires, werewolves, and witchcraft as real world evils. He knew Aleister Crowley. I think Ken mentioned him in his Supressed Transmission column from the online magazine Pyramid. How can we use his life and works in our games, including maybe a Dracula Dossier campaign or in a Yellow King game?

In reply to Kenneth Hite.

That’s exactly what I was looking for!

Thanks Ken and Moonminer!

In reply to Ethan Cordray.

Mistakes were made.

So now that you mention it, how to gamify and/or eliptonize geocaching and letterboxing? It seems like a natural for claiming territory by leaving evidence of oneself in hidden places all over.

In reply to Kristen.

Beloved listener Moonminer maintains the Horror Essentials List on Letterboxd: https://letterboxd.com/moonminer/list/kartas-horror-101/

Is there any chance of a horror essentials list in 2-3 weeks when its completed?

To this day I wish they’d done a season four of S&A. Othello?

All the way through the first segment, I kept wanting to yell at my podcast app: “Caleb Stokes just did this whole exact thing! It’s called “Nagalisitu,” and it’s a setting for Greg Stolze’s game Reign 2nd ed.” So not I guess I’m yelling that in the form of a comment. 🙂

The way it’s nerd-troped is that the PCs are basically time travelers, but only in the forward direction. They enter a primordial world through a portal, and start guiding a nascent tribe toward civilization. Then they leave and return, fast-forwarding to a point later in their pet civilization’s history, where their old deeds have faded into legend, and then make more changes on their civilization’s development path. Basically, like in Narnia, their “real-world” dimension moves through time much slower than their civilization’s pocket dimension. It’s a very cool concept!

I actually am only familiar with Thurn und Taxis because there’s a classic Euro boardgame by that name.

In reply to J Michael Cule.

I own that game. It looked just too nuts not to.

I will be cruel enough to remind you (if it ever crossed your consciousness) of ARIA: CANTICLE OF THE MONOMYTH which was the first and disastrous attempt to make an rpg on the Grand Scale Of Civilizations. The wonder of it is that it was ever published at all. As Andrew Rilstone’s review put it the problem was that you were playing Nations: “Soviet Union, what do you do?” “I suffer a series of internal struggles and metamorphose into numerous successor states.”

I too thought of MIRCROSCOPE. The problem with it in my opinion is that it assumes (because it is a story generating machine) that you know where the ending is going to be from the start. Which cuts into player agency.

Other particular games that should be mentioned include LEGACY which is the Powered By The Apocalypse variant of post-apocalypse society. This, like MICROSCOPE, zooms in and out in scale with two levels that of individual heroes and that of the cultures/factions they come from. And then there is REIGN which isn’t so useful in running games of social change on a huge scale but which I would choose to portray the moment of change, the moment at which a particular stage of society ends and a new one begins.

You missed the 4D man from 1959 starring Robert Lansing, Lee Meriwether in their first movie roles.

In reply to Chris Nolen.

Side note the weatherman is played by William Schallert. He has acting credits going through six decades. One of his last roles was playing the mayor in True Blood.

In reply to Phil Masters.

I’m 11 episodes behind. Good catch sir!

Another werewolf movie that I thought was fairly terrific but frankly have no idea how anyone would see currently: a French film I saw at an Alamo-sponsored online film festival last year called Teddy. It’s from a pair of brothers whose previous work is definitely not in the horror genre and this doesn’t initially feel that way either, kind of observational comedy about a prickly young man who’s going nowhere and is mostly bemusedly tolerated at best by…most of the rest of his small town, but has a core of sweetness. Except, well. At one point he goes into the woods because the police are chasing a wolf there, and he doesn’t believe that’s what’s going on. And something attacks him. (We don’t see the attack, or indeed any werewolf stuff 99% of the time, which is one of the things I like about the film.) And things start to spiral out of control.

I thought Uzumaki-the-movie was merely okay, but I highly, highly recommend the original manga, and Junji Ito’s work in general. Uzumaki is his masterwork and a dizzying descent into utter, terrifying madness. But he manages to eke creepiness out of seemingly less promising elements as well, like Gyo, which features killer farts (or rather, a virus that inflates you with gas. but still.), or a short he did just really drilling deep into grease.

Pathfinder has a haniver gremlin that is a rather pathetic monster compared to Ken & Robin’s gleeful spitballing: https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Haniver

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Episode 256: 13/10, Would Betray « Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff

In reply to Evan Hughes.

Or the Miskatonic Ideal.

In reply to Phil Masters.

Ken’s version is clearly the Splatonic Ideal of Yorkshire pudding.

Before any other British posters get superior about American culinary delusions, I think I should say that I envy Ken his ignorance of ‘salad dressing’. I only wish British cooks had protected me from knowing anything of the stuff and had not kept me ignorant of the existence of mayonaise for so long.

I’m just going to go and sit in the corner and shudder until the memories of school catering fade from my mind.

Uh, Ken — I think your understanding of what a Yorkshire pudding is may need some correction. Preferably before anyone from Yorkshire gets hold of you.

What game could one play to have something like the adventures of Benvento Cellini, goldsmith, sculptor, draftsman, soldier, musician?

I realize this is something of a nitpick, but the real life case where a murderer came “out of the mirror” (from the adjoining apartment through a gap in the wall covered by the medicine cabinet), which might have been an inspiration for “Candyman”, occurred in the Grace Abbot Homes section of the “ABLA” housing projects, not the more notorious Cabrini-Green project, as Ken claimed. Which is somewhat ironic, given that the Chicago Reader piece that first brought the case to prominence makes the point that the Cabrini-Green projects were more notorious and got more media coverage, but the ABLA Homes projects were actually more dangerous.

If anyone wants more on the UK occult scene in the 60s & 70s check out this great programme if you get the BBC iplayer in your area

Black Aquarius
Matthew Sweet explores the dawning of the age of Black Aquarius – the weirdly great wave of occultism that swept through British popular culture in the 1960s-70s. From journals like the Aquarian Arrow to the diabolical novels of Dennis Wheatley, lurid accounts of satanic cults in the Sunday papers and the glut of illustrated books, part-magazines, documentary film and TV drama, it was a wildly exuberant seam of British pop culture.
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I’m never sure how precise RPG terminology is yet. “Simulation” worries me, just to start with, because you can either simulate reality or you can simulate a genre; for example, Champions is flawed as a simulation of reality because of details that make it a good simulation of a certain type of ’70s Silver Age comics. (Being knocked back by punches doesn’t generally work like that, and nor does unconsciousness caused by concussion.) Most people take “simulationism” to mean “simulation of reality”, I guess, but even that leaves questions about how well the typical gamer understands reality.

So a lot of “narrative” games are actually simulating narrative conventions. In reality, a detective isn’t guaranteed to discover the clues that will help solve a crime; mistakes happen. But in a mystery game, if that’s what the GM’s intentions demand, you may want the Gumshoe rule that guarantees success.

And even “complexity” has more than one form. The podcast implied that GURPS was quite complex, which is somewhat justified, but it tries for clean complexity; there are rules for many things; most tests boil down to “roll 3d6” and often add “hope to roll below a target number”. Compare this with the first couple of editions of AD&D, which probably had rules for few different things than the GURPS Basic Set — but every time the writers added a new rule for a new thing, they’d invent a new dice mechanic for it, so the books ended up as a crawling heap of arbitrary rules, which were impossible for a casual player to learn. D&D 3rd edition looked radical because the authors clearly saw the problem, and revised the system to a much more GURPS style of clean complexity. If D&D3 was “the most complex edition”, it was at least learnably complex.

Informative and entertaining answer, gentlemen. I didn’t know the story about the LaVey’s box, and having a solid LaVey/’60s California/Aquino/Military Intelligence connection to the Yellow Mythos opens a lot of interesting doors.

Note that Billy the Kid was in the Lincoln County War (in New Mexico). The Johnson County War was in Wyoming, between the Wyoming Stock Growers Association (headquartered out of the Cheyenne Club) and locals styled (perhaps reasonably, perhaps not) as “rustlers”.

My deep appreciation for your incisive discussion of my book Scan Artist: How Evelyn Wood Convinced the World That Speed-Reading Worked in your podcast of Feb. 19, 2021 (Episode 433.) Yes, there are striking parallels between the belief in the paranormal and the once widespread belief that people can learn to read thousands of words per minute without losing an iota of comprehension but rather improving it. It was also, as you noted, a very American hoax, framed as self-help but exploiting insecurities. I must admit I was surprised to encounter the best review ever done of my book on a podcast that is largely about game design! I wish I’d made half the observations you did in my upcoming interview with BBC Radio, already recorded.

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Episode 165: If You Violate a Ghost’s Trade Policy « Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff

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Ken and Robin Consume Media: Samurai, Santa and Spider-Mans « Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff

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My nearest and dearest overheard the bit about mushroom water and reacted with “Filter it!”. Yes, there’s often dust or grit in there — but she promises that a coffee filter or tea strainer or sieve will remove that and leave useful mushroom flavour.

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from lat. manus – “hand” and scribo – “I write”) ]

In reply to Vulpine.

Note, this is not a dig at Robin’s French, but my ears 😉

If you’re like me and mostly monolingual, and Robin’s French confused the heck out of you, what you’re looking for is “Erik Satie – Gymnopédie No.1”

I found it by Googling “Satie piano #1”, luckily google is smarter than me.

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Two more footnotes to the Cinema Hut bit:

1. I don’t see how The Incredible Shrinking Man is a film about scientific hubris. As I recall, the hero is a random guy who suffers a completely arbitrary combination of events. It’s much more cosmic horror, surely, right through to the getting-all-metaphysical ending.

2. If next week is all about late 50s/early 60s gothic, well, I guess it’s too late to suggest that Ken should be wearing black for it — https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/jan/12/barbara-shelley-obituary .

In reply to Chris Nolen.

Unless there’s two 1950s monster movies about giant crystals crushing towns…

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Regarding Steve Quayle, L.A. Marzulli, and the Nephilim, blogger Jason Colavito has written *extensively* on them, including the Kandahar giant. It’s all nonsense, but it includes a lot of gameable nonsense.

Specifically regarding the “double teeth”, archaeologist Andy White has detailed the origins of the term on his blog. In the 19th and early 20th century, it was a common term for molars and pre-molars. It was also used to describe heavily worn incisors that were so ground-down they resembled molars. “Double row of teeth” was also commonly used to describe someone, living or dead, who had a full or nearly full row of both upper and lower teeth.

These common terms were often used in describing the “giants” that turned up with some frequency in 19th century newspaper accounts. Steve Quayle, L.A. Marzulli, and other Nephilim-enthusiasts picked up the term without understanding the context, and rolled it up with other supposed markers of Nephilimism, like giant stature, red hair, and polydactylism.

In reply to Nickpheas.

I didn’t catch it either, but I’m pretty sure they’re talking about “The Monolith Monsters.”

I missed, or you didn’t say, the title of the crystals film. Could you remind me?

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So these days, when a pollster calls I first ask who is paying for the poll. When they (inevitably) respond with either “I don’t know” or “I can’t give you that information”, my response is, “If you won’t answer my questions, I’m certainly not going to answer yours.” I don’t think this generally cynical attitude is all that uncommon. Nor do I think it unjustified (but then I suppose I wouldn’t).

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In reply to Dylan Craig.

I think that recording an opinion a mere few days after the election was a mistake. Though that’s not entirely K&R’s fault; usually by then things have settled out, and you’re not setting yourself up for embarrassment when the podcast drops ten days later. Unfortunately, that didn’t work this time.

I had the impression that Ken had largely stepped back from the Republicans after they nominated Trump and then he got elected, but I can understand a lifelong Republican feeling happy when Trump loses and a lot of other Republicans win; it must look like a golden opportunity to reclaim the party from the nutters. And honestly, a sane Republican party would be better for the world than a Cult of Trump. But sadly, not only has Trump (rather predictably) refused to concede defeat, but most of those successful Republicans are, at the time of typing, enabling him.

Which suggests that the Republican Party in government now consists of either actual Trumpites or abject moral cowards. Which I’d like to think Ken finds depressing, but…

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In reply to Dylan Craig.

I’ll be honest, as soon as the praise of the Republican held house and senate came up I stopped the podcast. I’m done. I’ve been a long time listener. Like, really long time seriously at least 4 years. The Republican party has made it pretty clear they are against the LGBTQ+ community in every way possible, and cheering them on just strikes me as the actions of someone who I just would not get along with. No matter the reasoning behind it, it’s super alienating. And gets more absurdist after the recent thing about “how to work with each other and have differing political opinions” segment.

Problem is, one party at least has the pretense of viewing my community as people. The other, repeatedly, does not, and using your platform in support of that party is pretty telling. So bye guys, not buying the works anymore, and unsubscribing. I hope you look on this and at least consider being better than this.

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In reply to Ray Dunn.

“anti-leftists”

In reply to Dylan Craig.

Seconding this. I had to turn off the podcast this week. I’ll check back next week and hopefully Ken isn’t indulging in tone deaf hot takes by then. I generally like him, but for the absolute life of me I can’t understand why he’s a Republican at this point.

When your party’s directly responsible for 250,000 dead Americans and another 8+ million homeless, you might want to reconsider your affiliations with it.

At a bare minimum, maybe reconsider cheering them on when they retain the means of cheating (especially after they spent all year trying really, really hard to blatantly to steal an election).

In reply to Ray Dunn.

Cool, thanks for your support.

In reply to Dylan Craig.

Oh, nosies! Ken had an opinion you don’t like! Burn everything!

Oh, wait, this isn’t Portland…

It is why, however, that this should be a current-politics-free zone. Because just as the anti-trumpers don’t want to listen to Ken have any opinion they dislike, anti-leftists who have been quietly enduring Robin’s sneering Trump Derangment Syndrome hot takes for the last four years are pretty sick of it, too.

Hearing Hite cheer for Republican gains in the Politics Hut is such a goddamn bummer. I understand that being Republican is his brand, or whatever, but can we get the goddamn thief-in-chief to concede before you cheer for the people who put him there?

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You made an error concerning the first Mummy movie from 1932. The Mummy’s name was Imhotep. In his 20th guise, Imhotep called himself Ardeth Bey. Which is an anagram for “Death By Ra”
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In reply to Gene Ha.

The alternate timeline where Tom Cruise doesn’t turn down the part is worth a visit.

I love everything about Streets of Fire so much, except that the most boring character is the hero. The actor is boring, his dialog is boring, he even has the only boring costume in the whole movie. The movie comes to a screeching halt whenever he’s on screen.

They had effing WILLEM DAFOE and barely gave him any screen time.

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Episode 214: The Puppet Below « Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff

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Bit late to the party, but as far as organists and the occult in Belle Epoque Paris:

Erik Satie was the main composer for Péladan’s splinter group of Rosicrucians, and also wrote church organ music—specifically, a very odd and (and weirdly mathematical, and also to some people quite creepy-sounding) piece titled “Mass for the Poor”:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZesZvGLkrqQ

Satie as the connective tissue for the Belle Epoque era of a YKRPG campaign could be quite interesting, actually!

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As you are no doubt aware, TENET, itself is a palindrome, based on the famous “Sator Square.” According to that bastion of unassailable information, Wikipedia, the name “Sator,” in addition to being the antagonist of the film, is also evocative of Saturn, “the Roman God of time-cycles, agriculture, and magic.” (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sator_Square)

It might be fun to feature the more esoteric aspects of the film in a future segment of the podcast.

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I have heard of one medical condition (aside from eye disease/damage) where diagnosis involves examining the iris, sort of; look up Wilson’s Disease, and especially Kayser–Fleischer Rings. It even feels sort of subtly Lovecraftean; Have you seen the copper ring?

Re iridology

My dad used to tell of the time he went to have his eyes checked and the lady opthalmologist looked into his eyes and murmured gently to him in a sweet Irish accent:

“Have you ever been troubled with piles?”

I dunno. I’m just sayin’

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Just a heads up that I’ve compiled the Pinnacle films in a list on Letterboxed:
https://letterboxd.com/thebitterguy/list/ken-and-robin-talk-about-stuff-pinnacle-films/

Films discussed:
“Pinnacles”: Aniara (Sweden), Shadow (China), Shoplifters (Japan), Burning (South Korea), High Life (France).

“Good”: Vision (Japan), Border (Sweden), Cities of Last Things (Taiwan), Legend of the Demon Cat (China), Edge of the Knife (Canada), Killing (Japan), Diamantino (Portugal).

[…] starts off with a quote from Robin Laws in the most recent episode from the excellent podcast Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff, “D&D is weird in that the good guys are going around causing […]

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The criticism of Brooks in the recent eps really pains me.
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As regards crystals, I think it would be worth mentioning Dilithium crystals as well. By the mid-70s, they were certainly better known than anything Terry Brooks wrote. Sure, Star Trek was nominally SF rather than Fantasy, but then so was Darkover.

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This is probably true in all fields but you can’t get any discussion going without words.

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And since we are not all Prof Tolkien or Prof M.A.R. Barker it’s a problem for role-playing games as well. The best solution I’ve seen is what Jonathan Tweet did with EVERWAY: give characters names that mean something. Fortitude Elephant*, Potbearer, Salamander, Flameskin. Since those words themselves have derivations it probably just pushes the problem back a step but at least I don’t have to make up a ConLang to run a simple game.

* Fortitude Elephant is a scion of the rich, land-holding Elephant family. Unless she’s a scion of the poor but notably martial Fortitude family. I forget which.

Another case of modern English vocabulary that seems out of place in a period game: I have been running a solo Greek myth game for my wife using BESM for many years. Her character has become involved in the Trojan War, and had an epic showdown with Achilles. BESM has an Achilles’ Heel defect, but I decided that not only did it sound weird putting that phrase on his stat block (even if I was the only one who would ever see it), it also didn’t model his almost-total invulnerability as well as I liked.

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As to top-down vs. bottom-up, I have two different versions. For game design, I would use “bottom-up” to indicate a design from the details. E.g., the Runequest combat system was designed to provide something that felt more like what a bunch of early SCA players thought made more sense than the combat system of D&D: “Armor doesn’t keep you from being hit, it prevents damage. And combat rounds that last a full minute are silly; fights often take only seconds!” “Bottom-up” game design tends to fall afoul of chaotic elements (as in “chaos theory”), such that while each element is carefully designed to feel right and explicitly replicate the thing the designer finds most important, small problems at each step (and unrealized missing steps) usually end up with major problems in the final game. The difference in actual WWII combat between the US .30 cal. MG and the German MG-42, which had about 2½ times the rate of fire, was nothing like a 150% advantage for the German weapon.

OTOH, “top-down” in that realm refers more to effect-driven design, so you start with the feel or results you want to get and then build whatever systems will support that, preferably without violating the expectations of your players too much. In general, that form of “top-down” design is much more common these days (at least among the bigger companies) than “bottom-up”. My understanding of the investigation systems of Gumshoe, for instance, is that they are designed to produce a specific gaming experience, not to explicitly replicate the experience of an actual investigator.

For world design, I see those philosophies as well. The idea of starting with a full ‘living’ world design and then creating a game to fit in the world was very popular early on, in parallel with, or following the example of, Tolkien. Greg Stafford’s Glorantha and M.A.R. Barker’s Tekumel being famous and influential early examples of this style. That kind of world design is still pretty common in the published worlds of big gaming systems (see Pathfinder, Traveller, D&D, Vampire: the Masquerade, ….) To some extent, I think this is simply to meet the expectations of the customers.

Like you, I’m not willing to go to that extent for a new campaign I’m designing. If the campaign is intended to be a Bildungsroman starring peasants from a small village, I might well start with only the village and one or two encounter sites and some vague notes for what else might exist. That sort of peasant might well not even know the name of his baron, count, or king, having never met anyone but tax collectors sent by those august personages. I can always add to the world around as the game progresses, and the amount of wasted work otherwise can be daunting. If your primary hobby is world design (see Barker and Stafford, for instance) rather than running games, full-featured world design is not a bug, but that does not describe me.

That said, I think it’s worthwhile to consider a bit more than just the things closest to the PCs in many games. In a WWII game, for instance, while the average soldier isn’t likely to care much about Japanese participation in WWI, US mediation of the Boxer Rebellion and the Russo-Japanese War, or the French invasion of Germany in 1925, he is likely to know about the Munich Agreement of 1938, might well have read about the Schneider Trophy races, and probably cared deeply about some sporting competition or other.

In Pavis, an adventurer will certainly care about where to repair or replace a broken sword, where to go to worship (and buy spirit magic), and which boarding houses have the fewest vermin. But he will also likely know that the Lunar Empire invaded a decade ago and was eventually kicked out. He and his friends might well have assigned the bad-guy role to the kid whose stick sword was least straight. And it’s pretty likely that he will have heard about the reason the River of Cradles is named what it is.

In order for a GM to handle that kind of miscellaneous knowledge (and to foreshadow future events, of course), at least some of that should really be available from the start of the campaign. Fleshing out the details can be left until later, but I think it’s important to have at least some random bits of weirdness floating around from the start, both to give more atmosphere and to give the players something to work toward.

My preference is to have at least some of the wider world and its history built in my head, including interesting (not necessarily important) details, but to put most of my effort into the things that will directly affect my players. Which I see as kind of a middle ground between true top-down and bottom-up world design.

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I have never used ‘top-down or bottom-up’ in that sense. In RPGs I always use it to describe the two approachs to creating a setting.

You will recall all the long lists of ancient ages of the world, dynasties and dates of battles that appeared in the early releases of settings like Harn, Tekumel and Glorantha. Everybody was in awe of and in imitation of Tolkien. It was the thing to do.

But what actually makes the game work is how the player characters see the world, from the level of the street or the battlefield. They don’t care for the deep history except how it affects them. A barbarian in Robin’s Pavis game won’t care for the story of Harmast Barefoot: he will care that there’s a temple of Orlanth for him to attend.

And in the real world, a civilian in a war zone won’t care about the history of the Austro-Sardinian war (let alone the Battle of Solferino) but he will care that there’s this thing called the Red Cross that will try to treat him, feed him and get him out of danger.

So I tend, when I’m creating my own settings, to make the immediate starting environment of the player characters the detailed and interesting bit and leave the deep history to be filled in later as the demands of plot and character demand. (“Harry, did you know your character’s homeland is the hereditary enemy of Tony’s King? Well, it is now.”)

I sometimes think there must be a more nuanced way to put this and a deeper, perhaps mixed approach and of course it doesn’t apply nearly as much if you go for ‘start with Earth’. Is there a middle way?

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Oliver Dickenson’s Griselda stories for White Dwarf did much to populise Glorantha in the UK.

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Episode 256: 13/10, Would Betray « Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff

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While I have no doubt that you’ve gotten complaints about a first-person style, I haven’t seen that as a general complaint in fantasy. All you have to do is look at Glen Cook’s Garrett, PI and Black Company series, Steve Brust’s Jhereg series, Robert Zelazny’s Amber series, Jim Butcher’s Dresden series, …, all of which have sold very well indeed, have been well reviewed, and have been hugely influential in the genre.

Any complaint about first person being out of the norm in the genre would be either naive or a proxy for some other complaint. Not that either naivety or disingenuity (or disingenuousness; both words are used) are especially rare, of course.

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“It would just be ‘plont’, as in Jacques Plante, the hockey player.”

The only way that could have been more Canadian would have been if Robin had first apologized for correcting Ken. 😎

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did Robin make the Continuum con at Leicester in 2012 as he was one of the reasons I went there for the first time but I thought his trip fell through?

Seems like one could restore at least some player agency by giving them some risk/benefit trade-off. Run silent or try some clever maneuver? Which direction to flee — and try to out-guess the sub-hunters. Give them choices to make.

I need more of Ken’s Eyeore-monsters.

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Episode 214: The Puppet Below « Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff

I think Dread might be a really good vehicle for building the suspense that characterizes Das Boot. Everything that happens requires somebody to pull a piece. And whenever the tower falls, somebody gets sacrificed to save the rest of the people on the boat: “My leg is trapped; you can’t save me. You must close the hatch to save the boat. Tell my wife that my last thoughts were of her.”

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Episode 214: The Puppet Below « Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff

Thank you so much for answering my question!! I guess, like one of the other commenters here, I’d throw out “Pendragon” as an alternate not-D&D example of a game where the rules assume that things will progress towards a particular ‘endgame’.

Basically, I’ve just been thinking, D&D (like most RPGs) doesn’t *really* have a ‘satisfying ending’ built into the rules itself. Sure, there’s the possibility of a TPK, an unhappy ending. But (aside from the funky strongholds-and-castles rules) there’s no ‘apotheosis’ built into the rules itself, unless everyone dies or gets bored you just get so high-level that the game bogs down into too much math and everyone stops playing. The job of ‘ending the campaign in a dramatically satisfying fashion which doesn’t involve a TPK’ is left to the creativity of the individual DM. But, maybe it’s possible to imagine a game (like Pendragon) which provides more built-in guidance for this?

Of course you’ve already answered the question, but I am just continuing my ramble on the topic — it isn’t *just* about building castles! XD

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Several thoughts on feudal lordship at the ends of campaigns:

1) We absolutely did build fiefs when we were powerful enough (this was in OD&D). Essentially all of the people I gamed with at the time started out as wargamers, so the obvious next step after retail slaughter was wholesale slaughter (and running armies was not a stretch, really.) And there are certainly plenty of stories to be told about solving (one hopes) problems on the much larger stage implicated by castles and thousands of armed men.

2) The step from adventurer to landholder/political force certainly features in many of the early genre books that inspired early roleplayers. See LotR for several obvious examples.

3) Robin strongly implies (or states?) that this was obviously ahistorical, but it clearly was not. See, for example, Rollo, Duke of Normandy, Japan during the Sengoku period, many of the followers of Chuck the Big in the HRE, the Normans in Sicily, the Kievan Rus, many of the followers of William in England, …. (To be fair, “Norman” is pretty strongly implicated in many of these. 😎 ) There were absolutely times and places where demonstrating military prowess resulted in awards of land and accrual of political power.

Feel free to avoid this kind of game. Like Call of Cthulhu, it’s not for everyone. But there is definitely a lot of fun to be had for the right group.

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Rather than becoming feudal lords, I was always a bit more interested in setting up really spectacular death scenes. Sadly the last Pendragon game collapsed just about three sessions before, but I was planning my knight to get himself killed at Badon, shot full of arrows like a hedgehog, staggering up the hill up the hill to present Arthur Excalibur, which for some reason was buried under the alter of his family chapel, before breathing his last.

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Ken’s pointed remarks about Nephilim and the absurdity of Mrs. Ruiz, the laundromat owner from Miami who becomes a mahatma and inheritor of the soul of Genghis Khan, stand in sharp contrast to the fact that, almost in the same breath, he mentions that Genghis started out as a lowly herder from the sticks before conquering a quarter of the globe. What the game failed to do was really explore Mrs. Ruiz’s potential to change the world again, for good or bad. Instead, she and her mates squirmed under the heel of a top-heavy array of human secret societies. That was a wrong left-turn for Nephilim to take, editorially.

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Episode 256: 13/10, Would Betray « Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff

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Dear Ken and Robin,
A question about something mention in past episodes and on Ken’s appearance on The Blurry Photos podcast about HP Lovecraft. You mentioned that some Satanist refer to the dark universe as….. clithotic? clipothic? What was the word and how the hell do you spell it?
Regards
Karl

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Episode 256: 13/10, Would Betray « Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff

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Episode 256: 13/10, Would Betray « Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff

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1) Knights Black Agent is already Jason Bourne versus vampires, drop the vampires and just run a 1:1 as high-action counter-conspiracy.
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4) Reminder, Batman is the “World’s Greatest Detective”
5) And Superman (and Wonder Woman) operated mostly alone, or had to defeat the insidious plot and save the loved one at the same time.
6) Its a one-shot, but DOA-style “who killed me?”
7) Amnesiac mystery of “who am I?”
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9) Bubblegumshoe 1:1! Nancy Drew obviously, or you could Scooby Do is; the other members of the gang are hinderances that Velma must overcome.
10) file the serial numbers off for a Miss Marple English cozy mystery.
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PS Robin is right. Detective Dee would make a great set of scenarios.

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Episode 223: There’s No Blood in a JPEG « Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff

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Episode 256: 13/10, Would Betray « Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff

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1. I try to make an effort to refer to the *four* major writers of WEIRD TALES–Howard, Lovecraft, CAS, and C.L. Moore. She did much of her major work there and was greatly admired by Howard (and, if memory serves, HPL).

2. If I recall correctly, Jack Vance once commented that everything he knew about style he had learned from “”The Tale of Satampra Zeiros” ” and “The Theft of the Thirty-Nine Girdles”.

3. Attempts to reprint the entire Clark Ashton Smith corpus doomed 2 major publishing endeavors–Betty Ballantine and Lin Carter’s “Ballantine Adult Fantasy” line, which published 4 out of a projected 6 thematic volumes; and David G. Hartwell’s Timescape imprint, which managed only 2 volumes before folding. And Night Shade Press ran into some serious financial difficulty before managing to finish Scott Conners’s 5 volume COMPLETE FANTASY TALES, but they did all get published eventually. CAS is almost the textbook example of an anti-commercial success.

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I was going to comment on that module myself.

The first part of it isn’t “Edgar Allen Poe-themed”, though (or if it is, it’s indirect). It’s based on Roger Zelazny’s Chronicles of Amber series (which is cited in Appendix N).

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…and then I discovered Lovecraft, and the Cthulhu Mythos, which borrowed heavily from Smith.

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